S1:E9 Bipolar Disorder and Creativity

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In this heartfelt episode of Courage to Heal, host Anna Khandrueva, psychotherapist and mental health advocate, dives into the fascinating and complex relationship between bipolar disorder and creativity. Anna explores the long-standing debate: Are people with bipolar disorder more creative, or is the connection merely a myth?

To bring this discussion to life, Anna sits down with R.H.R. Surgener, a talented surrealist artist living with bipolar disorder type I. Together, they delve into Hagen’s personal journey—his early struggles with diagnosis and acceptance, the impact of medication, and how his art became both a coping tool and a channel for deep emotional expression. Hagen shares how his mood cycles influence the themes and energy of his work and offers candid reflections on the challenges of living with bipolar disorder as an artist.

Throughout the conversation, Anna and Hagen unpack the latest research, debunk common myths, and highlight the nuanced ways bipolar disorder can both complicate and enrich a creative life. They also explore coping strategies like music, therapy, and reframing negative thoughts—offering hope and practical advice for artists and creatives living with bipolar disorder.

Episode Notes

You can find Hagen on Instagram @cybergrunge2xx and on his YouTube channel.

Transcript

Anna: Welcome to Courage to Heal a podcast where we explore the battles we wage within ourselves. I am your host Anna Khandrueva, a psychotherapist, and a mental health advocate.

Hello and welcome to our discussion on by. Polar disorder and creativity. To me, this is a fascinating and controversial topic. It's fascinating because so many amazing artists have been diagnosed with bipolar, and it's controversial because research says it's still inconclusive. So first, let's talk about the fascinating part.

There are many creative people living openly with bipolar. Some examples include Sting, Demi Lovato, SIA, Selena Gomez, Mariah Carey, Russell Brand, Mel Gibson, Catherine Zaa Jones, Sam Gilliam, Richard Dreyfus, and David La Chappelle. If we look back in time, there are many, many artists, writers, and musicians who had or thought to have had bipolar disorder.

This includes Kurt Cobain, Edgar Allen Poe, Sylvia Plath, Tchaikovsky, Robert Schumann, Georgia O'Keefe, Lord Byron, Virginia Wolf, Charles Dickinson, Edward Munch, Frida Kahlo, and of course Vincent Vangogh. With a list like this, it's easy to see why some people think that there is a link between bipolar disorder and creativity.

Some of the most iconic works of art, music, and writing have been created by these people. In the words of Aristotle, no great genius has ever existed without a strain of madness. If you've been listening to my podcast since the beginning, or if you are familiar with symptoms of bipolar, you know that mania and hypomania are major features of this disorder.

These are periods of extremely high energy and productivity in which people start a lot of various projects and are capable of accomplishing incredible feats. They are also times when people feel grand geos and fearless. These manic and hypomanic episodes are interspersed with depression and occasional stability.

The common theory goes something like this, artists with bipolar created a mind blowing rate during mania and slow down during depression. However, the depression is often what shows them the depth of emotion and brings beautiful yet heartbreak and humanness to their art. I don't believe that a bipolar person, structurally and functionally different brain is more predisposed to creative expression.

Here comes the controversial part. The research on this topic is somewhat inconclusive. One of the latest studies looked at 12 different scientific articles regarding this topic and found no connection between bipolar and creativity. In fact, they found that people with bipolar were less creative during depressive episodes compared to people who were stable.

However, eight of the articles included people who were medicated for bipolar. There is a belief that medication reduces creativity because it eliminates or reduces the occurrence of mania and hypomania, allegedly the most creative phases of the disorder. Stay tuned to see what today's guest has to say about that.

Another thing to point out about these 12 studies is that they use tests that are supposed to measure creativity, but how do you really measure creative genius? For example, one test involves looking at a series of abstract black and white images and rating them as like or dislike. Liking the more complex images is supposedly associated with creativity because that trend is seen among artists, but is it in and of itself a measure of one's ability to create art that touches on the deepest level?

Who knows? Only one of these 12 articles looked at the creative product and lifetime creative accomplishment. Interestingly, this study found that people with bipolar and their relatives who did not have bipolar were significantly more creative, but there was an inverse relationship between creativity and the severity of bipolar symptoms.

The more severe the symptoms, the lower the creative accomplishment. Once again, stay tuned for the interview to listen to my guest's opinion on this. What does other research show? Well, a couple of studies suggest that there is a tenfold increase in the rate of bipolar disorder among artists. One reviewed the families of over 300,000 people in Sweden and found that individuals with bipolar as well as their healthy siblings were overrepresented in creative professions.

Another looked at 13,000 people and found that the diagnosis of bipolar was overrepresented in the most creative occupations such as painting, writing, music, and lighting design. This alone does not prove that one causes the other as there may be other factors influencing the correlation. For example, one explanation is that people with bipolar struggle with traditional employment and may be drawn to creative professions that allow for more flexible hours regardless of their actual levels of creativity.

On a personal level, I have seen that there is something to this idea that bipolar influences creativity. One explanation of this connection is genetic. There seems to be evidence that the same genes that are responsible for bipolar and psychosis also have parts that are responsible for creative expression.

One of such genes is called New Reg in one gene or NRG one. This gene is thought to play a role in the development of bipolar disorder and it also seems to be associated with creativity in people of higher intellect and academic achievement. Another possible explanation has to do with the stereotype of the suffering artists.

I don't think we will ever truly a doubt posttraumatic whether having bipolar also increases trauma experience. Do is creative impressions. Think, I hope Fascinations express spark curiosity and sorrow if it did, check out the and you'll many examples of this phenomenon. Manic depressive illness in the ally.

Childhood trauma by Kay capable of triggering clinical psychologist. Living with bipolar disorder now is one of the keys to unlocking this. Let's hear about it from a person with a lived experience of having both bipolar and artistic talent. Today I'm interviewing RHR Surgeon, or a wonderfully talented surrealist artist who lives with bipolar disorder Type one.

Hagen's art is very unique and I'm very excited to have him on Courage to Heal. And Hagan, can you please tell my listeners a little bit about yourself?

Hagen: Guess I'll start off by saying I've drawn since I got a hold of pencil, or at least it seems that way probably since I was four or five. Currently I got about 1200 followers on Instagram for it.

And then I'm in two galleries and a bistro and a diner. Went to college for a while, realized it wasn't really for me. I like being my own boss for one, and I just, that doesn't really mesh well authority sometimes. So yeah, and I posted some of my art Reddit, and that's why Anna found me. So here I am today doing this interview.

Anna: I really did fall in love with your art because it's so unique and the more I read about you on your website, I really got really into it. And, you know, I hope that my listeners do too. I hope that they check you out. And Hagen, how did you first come to be diagnosed with bipolar and what was that like to hear that diagnosis?

Hagen: Originally, I went through a lot of depression when I was younger. Probably started around 14 or 15. At one point I got put on antidepressants for a while, and I guess one of the antidepressants at one part just started like, like it caused me to have a manic episode, and I didn't sleep for like four or five days.

It was just extremely bold. I, I, I'm, I leaned more towards introversion normally, but I was like talking to strangers. I am not proud of this, but I was basically almost getting in fights with random people. People are trying to help me. I remember I rode my skateboard down, like the biggest hill in my town.

I don't smoke normally, but I was chain smoking flirting with strangers, trying to remember some other stuff I did. Yeah, just pretty much just all over the place, hyperactive and not sleeping. And then my dad eventually made me go to the hospital. And then I got booty juiced at one part at one point.

That's fun. Thorazine shot 'cause I wouldn't calm down. Calmed down for a little bit and then it was like two or three weeks later I did the same thing. Then I fell into like a deep depression, went to college. And then I had gotten diagnosed with bipolar before, but I guess I didn't want to accept it.

And then my doctor finally put me on like Lamictal and I kind of, and I was like, why am I being put on this? And he is like, well, we think you have a mood disorder. I am like, okay. They took me to, I've been to the hospital once. They said I had bipolar one. He tried diagnosing bipolar two, and then, yeah, here I am at 23 finally accepting this and.

Trying my hardest to be a full-time artist and occasional door dasher. And that doesn't pay the bills,

Anna: right? If, if only art was appreciated and respected more. And you know, unfortunately, not everybody has the same appreciation for it as, as I do, as you do and as some other people do. So Hagen, how has life been since the diagnosis and since the medication?

Hagen: I would say overall my my moods are a lot less lab aisle, but sometimes when like, I guess bad out outside, extraneous things have happened and it can cause me to go either up or down. But usually I've gotten pretty good at like. Realizing when I'm heading one direction or the other, like if I haven't slept really well in like four or five days, I'll like, I don't know, take a bunch of melatonin and like workout till I'm exhausted and then just force myself to go to sleep.

It'll feel good in the moment, but I know at some point I'm gonna end up doing stuff I regret and then when I come back down to baseline, it's probably just gonna make me even more depressed. It's not gonna be be baseline, I'm gonna be depressed, but yeah.

Anna: Yeah, so, so it sounds like you do have those periods of stability in between, but you still do feel yourself going up and down sometimes.

And I can relate to that.

Hagen: The meds definitely help if anyone's listening and you have bipolar disorder, take your meds. But sometimes meds aren't enough and you just need to still take care of yourself with like good sleep, exercise. I use art to process a lot of my emotions when my emotions are still bothering me.

It's some of my best art's been made when I'm either really depressed or i'll hypomanic mania and not really making RNM out. At three or four in the morning, flirting with strangers, getting drunk and not sleeping and just doing stuff you probably shouldn't really be doing. But it feels good because that's mania.

Anna: Okay, that's, that's really interesting. And I'll definitely, I have some questions about that, but maybe could you tell my listeners a bit more about your art and the style it is and the medium you use?

Hagen: So I call my style robotica. It's like surrealism mixed with outsider art and it's kind of has some psychedelic influences as well.

It's has a bit of a dark theme. I honestly had a rough childhood. You can read about it on my read about it on my website. And I talk about it a lot too. And I make my art like kind of talk about dealing with certain emotions and feelings and like past things that still kind of pop into my mind at times from my childhood.

And they use whatever mediums I could a hold of though. Paintings, pencils you've used blood at one point.

Anna: Yeah, that's definitely creative. And like I said, I love your art. It's, I. It speaks to me because it's so unique. Like you said, it combines this like technology aspect to it with art, which I find really interesting 'cause you don't normally think art with technology.

You think technology has been very devoid of art and yet you somehow manage to bring life to it, which is beautiful. Hagen, there are many artists out there living with bipolar. Some have been diagnosed after their death, so we'll never know for sure. You know, of course this includes people like Vincent Van Gogh, Jackson Pollock artists, not just, you know, painters, but Kurt Cobain, which I know you're a fan of, him also had bipolar.

Do you believe that bipolar and creativity are related?

Hagen: Yeah, I, I think there's definitely a link. Also heard there's a correlation between bipolar and high intelligence. Like I said, I've definitely made some of my best art when I'm either high or low. For me personally, I feel like I can hear in a lot of Kurt Cobain's music, like the struggle with bipolar, and especially with like regards to self-esteem.

Because it seems like in the songs I can hear, I don't wanna say narcissism, but I guess like pseudo narcissism. 'cause it's, when you're manic, it's not really so much narcissism, just grandiosity that isn't entirely based in reality, I guess. And then at the same time, depression, you can kinda like wreck yourself esteem where you just feel like you're nothing.

And I've experienced both of those things. I, I can just hear it in the music. Really like a lot of Van Gogh's work, by the way. Same with Jackson Pollock. It's not so much like the technicality of Pollock's work that I like. It's just he was the first guy to really do abstract expressionism. So like, they were like, why is he famous?

'cause no one had done that before. It's.

Anna: You mentioned that a lot of creativity for you comes either during highs or during lows. And I know that just based on interviews a lot of artists say that they tend to create a lot during their manic phases, which makes sense 'cause you're so energetic, you wanna start all of these projects.

Can you relate to that? 'cause you also mentioned that mania, like if you are really manic, you may not have the wherewithal to actually sit down and create. How does that work for you?

Hagen: I feel like when I'm truly manic, it's, it's like a DHD times 12 mixed with like some narcissism sprinkled in basically.

'cause you, you feel like you're a demi god almost. I do personally when I'm like that, which is kind of like the danger of mania because part of likes the way it feels, but like. At the same time, it's almost like my anxiety gets turned up to 12 as well, but I also have like a God complex or something when I'm like that and you, you behave accordingly, which is dangerous.

I'd say hypomanic though. I'm, I'm really productive, but I mean, I, I make myself create, regardless of how I'm feeling, I'm always trying to work on a new piece, like I'm working on a new one right now. Sometimes I'll start a piece when I'm more like up. Sometimes I'll start a piece when I'm more down or just in the middle, and.

Usually my mood can fluctuate, like as I'm working on the piece, which makes it interesting.

Anna: Do you find that your art looks different depending on what episode you're in or what mood you're in?

Hagen: I feel like on a more manic my art tends to have an aggressive side to it. It looks more angry, I guess.

'cause mania for me, I'm gonna say mania, I mean hypomania, but like I. I become a lot more irritable and like angry, but I tend not to express it hourly 'cause I know it can be. I know it can destroy a relationship, so I tend to just put it in the art and like save it for art or either hitting the gym really hard when I am depressed.

It just kinda looks darker, if that makes any sense. Less, less aggressive, more I guess angsty looking like I can look at my art and I can see when I've been low and I can see where I've been high.

Anna: That's interesting. And you also mentioned that art helps you process things. Can you say more about that?

Do you feel like it has some kind of therapeutic value for you?

Hagen: I wouldn't say so much that art cures the depression, but it definitely, I. I feel like it expresses it for me and kinda like, I feel like it's sewing up the wound, but opening it up at the same time. 'cause like I'm connecting with the emotions that I'm feeling and I'm like expressing 'em.

But it doesn't necessarily cure the depression. It, it's hard to explain honestly. I know at times it's felt like the only thing that's kept me sane back when I, back before I was diagnosed and off when I didn't have mood stabilizers. 'cause I, nine times outta 10 if I was off my mood sta before then, I was just like really, really depressed and art kinda, it didn't get rid of the depression, but it like, it is just cathartic for it in a way.

I can't really explain.

Anna: So do you find that being on medication made it easier for you to create art?

Hagen: Yeah, because I know sometimes I've been so depressed I didn't feel like doing anything, and I haven't felt quite that low. And I don't know how long, probably since before mood stabilizers.

Anna: Yeah, that, that's interesting.

Always an interesting question for me because some people say that people with bipolar are just more creative, period, because we have different brains and there's some kind of link there between our brains and creativity. So it doesn't matter where you're at, whether you're stable or manic, hypomanic, depressed, we just period, have more creativity.

Other people say that no, it's during those hypomanic and manic faces when it really rises up. So I find that interesting that, you know, for some people, medication might take away the edge of their creativity. But for some people like yourself, it sounds like it can be helpful.

Hagen: Yeah, I just, I'd say I'm a highly creative person.

In general. I feel like bipolar kind of gives you a unique perspective and that helps with originality. I find that artists are very unique individuals generally, like they've had like unique experiences. And the more I guess, niche of a perspective someone has, the more creative they are because they just see the, in my opinion, my philosophy of creating and being, creating outside the box ideas comes with living outside the box.

Being unconventional usually leads to. Unconventional ideas and with regards to art, and the more out there, the better. Personally, when I was in my hometown, that wasn't necessarily the case. I was kinda looked at as like the little crazy, weird artistic nut in my hometown. But then I moved to the city and well, it seems to be a good thing now.

So. Yeah, keep, keep at it. If you're in your hometown, no one's paying attention to you. Eventually, if you don't give up, you will start to gain some attention.

Anna: You know? That makes me think of whether you told people, like let's say in your hometown at first that you had this diagnosis, and in general, when did you start being open about it and how was that for you?

Hagen: I know my little brother knew I had it for, I guess. Since I was first in the hospital or I didn't really have a name for it back then 'cause I feel like I got misdiagnosed with some other stuff that I just didn't agree with because it didn't make any sense. And my two other therapists disagreed with one of the diagnosis I got in the hospital.

But I, I, in the back of my mind, I knew the bipolar one might've made sense, but I didn't want to accept it. But yeah, I didn't really have a label for it. To be honest, I don't remember exactly when I started being open about it. I wouldn't say it was before my sophomore year of college. So only about a year or two ago, I guess.

Anna: Do you remember what kind of reaction you got when you started being open about it?

Hagen: I, I was worried it was gonna be more negative than what it was, but I don't remember the exact reactions. I just know it wasn't as negative, so I thought it was gonna be, it was more either like. I guess the feeling of like, you're brave for being open about it or indifference, but I never really had any negative reactions, which I was grateful for, and also surprised.

'cause I thought someone was gonna be like, oh, it's not real. Everyone's a little bipolar. And it's like, I didn't have any of that.

Anna: I, I've heard that before. Either, you know, everybody's a bit bipolar or well, but you seem normal. How can you possibly have bipolar? And then you're like, what? What did you just say?

It's, yeah, that one was hard to take.

Hagen: Normal's relative? What do you mean normal? I think I'm pretty normal. I'm not like, I know cutting cats cat heads off and putting on sticks outside my apartment or anything.

Anna: Right. That that's another stereotype people have with bipolar is that there's some kind of a danger or violence there, which.

Research doesn't agree with this is what I would like to ask you. 'Cause you've talked about not accepting your diagnosis at first. Could you maybe walk me through that? What was it like for you to be in denial at first and then finally accept it?

Hagen: I, I feel like part of it had to do with like some of my family members, not necessarily like believing in mental illness, or at least it seemed like they didn't.

And then just being around people that. I guess had poor SC coping skills it seemed like, 'cause there's a lot of drug addiction in my family and like alcohol abuse. My, my grandmother for one not, I don't know if she's technically diagnosed with bipolar or not, but I know she takes, she's supposed to be taking bipolar meds and she's told me multiple times that she doesn't take them.

And I keep telling her, you should probably take them. 'cause I have bipolar. And I've seen her go from like lovey dovey and happy to just angry and aggressive and like. I, I don't know if that's like bipolar aggression or not. And then like a week or two later, it's like all she can do is lay in bed and sleep and just be really, really sad.

And then she'll like try to start a business out of nowhere or like, and I'm like, all this lines up with bipolar. And then I guess seeing her not get any treatment for that growing up kinda, I guess. It made me think I was taking the easy way out, if that makes any sense. But now that I'm an adult, I realize it's bs like, what do you mean, easy way out?

Like you have a broken leg, you get a cast for it. Right. You don't, you don't say you don't need a cast. It's just a broken leg. Walk it off. You know? It's, that's, that's the way I see it now,

Anna: just like it's any, got a physical illness. You know that, that there's nothing wrong with, like you said, looking for treatment, taking medication, going to therapy, whatever people choose to do for their treatment, just like you would for any physical illness, that there shouldn't be any stigma associated with it.

Hagen: Yep.

Anna: And you know, what you refer to with your, with your grandma, your nana, with that anger. I wonder if you can relate to that, especially before being on medication with that bipolar, anger, bipolar rage, impulsivity, all of that stuff.

Hagen: Yeah, that's what I was saying, like some of my art and I'm man, more manic leaning is kinda like aggressive and angry it seems like.

I remember like. The depression also seems to make me angry, or at least it did a lot when I was younger. I remember like when I was 19 or 20 I can't remember if this was before my first manic episode or like right after and I was just confused and thought I was crazy myself for a while and just, it kinda like destroyed self-esteem for the longest time 'cause I had been in the hospital and like half my family didn't know what was wrong with me and I kind of scared away a bunch of like relatives and friends 'cause I.

I know one of the signs for me anyway, and I haven't gotten to the point of manual where I've been hospitalized since, again, I was 19, but I noticed I was posting a lot of stuff on social media that I guess could be considered controversial and. I know it scared a lot of my relatives 'cause they were calling me up about stuff I was posting on Facebook and parts of it.

I don't like to talk about exactly what I posted on there, but I know like after I came down, 'cause my aunt had to go onto my Facebook and log me out after I got in the hospital. 'cause I was just, I posted so much stuff that was like completely outta character for me. I'm generally a pretty calm person.

Again, that's why I express. Anger with my art. She had to go through and basically delete a lot of posts. And I remember when I logged back into it about, I don't know how long after being outta the hospital. Parts of it are kind of blurry, to be honest. There's like gaps in my memory except for like the really out there stuff.

Probably has to do with not sleeping for like five or six days. But I remember just reading some of the stuff and it was like really angry and like out there and just calling out people from all the way back in middle school I thought were mean to me and just like going on all kinds of crazy rants and, but yeah, there was like a lot of anger for a while.

I remember there was like an old TV. Where I lived for a while with my mom before college, but this is like post episode. There was like an old TV and a couch and stuff and it was completely abandoned. No one, no one owned the stuff. It was like decrepit and kind of had muled all over it. And there having to be like a stick out there.

And I remember just going out there and going ham on the tv, on the couch, just 'cause. Well, my mom is also dealing with addiction and my stepfather at the time was abusive towards my mother, and at one point I basically had to threaten him to get him to stop messing up my mother. And looking back, I wonder if the stress from that triggered an episode.

I remember after that, probably not a week or two later, I got like overly confident and started doing stuff outta character for me. And then it just kinda kept escalating until my dad was like, you need to go to the hospital. And yeah. And I also became more and more angry as I was becoming manic.

Anna: Yeah, that, I mean, everything you're saying is so in line with my personal experiences and my professional experiences too, that anger and then the oversharing, which of course social media makes it so easy for us to overshare and then it's, it can be embarrassing to go back and look at what we wrote and what we said to people.

Hagen: It doesn't help the depression when you're, when you're like depressed and you look back at all this stuff and you're like, oh man, and you kind of cringe 'cause you're like. You, it's almost like your self-awareness goes out the window when you're manic and like, you just don't see things from, like, I wouldn't say, it's almost like I don't see things from the perspective of myself.

I just kind of, I'm on autopilot and it's a like, hyperactive, overconfident, overly aggressive, irritable borderline delusional version of myself, and I'm on autopilot. And I, I'm still in control, but I'm not in control if that makes any sense. It's, it's like all my good attributes turned up to 12 to the point where they're no longer good.

They're they're bad. If that's any, yeah, that's kind of how I'd describe it. Fun in the moment, but. Also nerve wracking in a weird way. And when you come back you realize you had so much fun, but you destroyed so many relationships, scared so many people burned so many bridges outta like, just unbridled rage.

I mean, I never heard anyone, but I know I definitely scared some people and I'm not proud of it at all. It's like, I guess it's part of the shame, you know, like depression compounds that when you're, from mania, the baseline or depression. Yeah.

Anna: Yeah that all makes sense. And once again, very relatable.

Very relatable for sure. Hagan, I wonder, so we often think of like an artist's life as somewhat chaotic. You know, you can spend sleepless nights creating art. You can spend all this time traveling to countless exhibits trying to. Get your art out there. There's ups and downs of making a living with art like we alluded to at first.

Yeah. So do you think that the sort of instability in life can affect bipolar symptoms?

Hagen: Yeah. I feel like you, if you're an artist, you have to not take rejection personally and understand that artists is subjective. Some people will absolutely adore and love your work. Some people will just hate it and think it's pretentious garbage.

I'd say 70 to 80% of people are just like in the middle. They're indifferent, like they're just not really into art. And I'd say it can plan to bipolar if you take the acceptance or the rejection personally, because. I know when it seems like I'm on a hot streak and people are just in love with my art and I'm doing well on social media, I'm selling stuff, or I got into like a new gallery or something, my mood shoots up and I, it definitely seems like I can fill myself, I guess getting to the point of being manic like I said, I have like coping strategies all, like go work out really intensely and take melatonin or I'll be honest with my brother, like I, I told him not even two or three days ago, like, Hey.

I think I'm hypomanic right now. I'm still taking my meds. I don't plan on getting crazy or anything like that. Crazy with like quotation marks around it. I, that's, no one's crazy. But I, I told 'em as even I'm sleeping less, as long as I'm not, to the point of not sleeping for five or six days and like threatening people and saying, I'm gonna drive to someone's house or just do crazy stuff I'm fine because.

I, I told 'em that for the simple fact that I kind of need someone else. I, I feel like it's wise if you have bipolar to talk to someone before you start getting too out there so that way they know it and they can kinda like grab your leash metaphorically. 'cause I remember I just went a whole day without sleeping and I was still energetic.

And my little brother was like, little, little, he's 20, but like, he was like, you need to take a nap. And I'm like, I know I do. And then I just took some melatonin and a little bit ofl and passed out. Part of you doesn't want to like. Your body's tired, but something in your brain is like, I want to keep going.

I wanna keep going, I wanna keep going. And like, you know, you should stop. But it's like there's another part of your brain that's like, wants to chase the mania in a weird way, but at the same time, you know, that's self-destructive, but it doesn't, it feels good. And, and then when you, when you get rejected sometimes I feel like that can cause you to dip into depression.

I I know personally I've, I wouldn't say I've struggled with alcoholism, but I can see why there's a correlation between substance abuse and bipolar. Because I know when I've got depressed and I've happened to have like Evan Williams of my cabinet and like some Coke, Coca-Cola, I've got rejected from like gallery after gallery.

'cause like sometimes that happens, you'll just get rejected and then. Kind of just makes you depressed, but keep going. 'cause like I've got accepted out of nowhere sometimes and just opportunities will come along. So don't take it personal. Keep going. I think I got rejected by two or three galleries before I got accepted into my first one.

So it's part of the game, you know, life of an artist. Keep taking your meds, keep making art. Don't ever stop anyone that craps on your dreams too much. They're probably, either in denial about chasing their own dreams or they never tried in the first place, or they can only draw stick figures and they're just, what does their opinion matter anyway then?

So, yeah.

Anna: And you know, you mentioned a lot of coping strategies, exercise, art of course, in of itself. Yeah. Is, is a coping strategy. Music, and then you said just, oh, music too. Yeah. 'cause I was gonna ask what really helps, what's been the biggest help for you?

Hagen: Yeah, I, I'd say music, honestly. Music has always been there for me when I was, especially when I was younger, and it just seemed like no one was really around to help.

I could always turn to music. I feel like, and this maybe a controversial take, I feel like extreme music, meaning like I. Bath metal, black metal, heavy metal, just hardcore aggressive music helps me feel calm. That's, that's usually one of the things I'll do when I'm really angry or teed off. I'll just put my earbuds in and be like, I need a few minutes.

I'll go into my room, maybe sling a pillow around the room or something and just let the music play until I'm calm. Gimme about 15 or 20 minutes. I'm calm and I'm just happy go lucky. When I'm really sad, it's like cathartic to some, some sad music like Coldplay or like some wild horses song. I can't think of the artist.

But sad music helps when I'm really depressed. It like, lets it out rather than like, I guess letting it sit on the back burner and not acknowledging that you're sad or depressed. I feel like you have to confront it. Same way with like repressing anger and saying, I'm not angry, I'm not angry. It's not gonna help you.

It's, it's still gonna be in the back of your head, whether you acknowledge it or not. In my opinion, and I'm sure you agree with me as a therapist, it's better to acknowledge it and to just get it over with and move forward rather than ignoring it. Or like, if you get heartbroken, for instance don't be like, ah, she doesn't matter, or he doesn't matter.

Em, embrace it. Like, I'm not saying fall into self pity, but you have to acknowledge that you're heartbroken. And do something with it. If that means crying for a few hours and watching a comedy and eating a bunch of chocolate, hey, that's what you gotta do. For me, it's getting a paintbrush out and turning it into a beautiful piece of art.

But you can't run from it. You gotta embrace it so you can get over it. That's the only way. The only way, to get to the other side is through. But yeah, mu Music's helped me a lot comedies.

Anna: Oh, wonderful. Music sounds like a great coping tool for me. It's also been one, and you know, for me, for example, I love watching horror movies and a lot of people will be like, why?

Why do you like doing that? But for me it's calming. So people will find some things calming that other people won't. Hagen you mentioned therapy early on in this interview. Have you found that to be a helpful tool?

Hagen: Yeah, it taught me the basics of like cognitive behavioral therapy and like reframing That has helped me a lot and I feel like that's something you can basically get the basics of.

If, if you're listening and you can't afford afford therapy right now, Google cognitive behavioral therapy and like watch YouTube videos on it, and it, it's gonna be hard at first to challenge those negative thoughts, but eventually you get to where it's automatic and you just go something like I'm worthless or whatever, or no one wants me in a relationship.

And you've been in deep depression for a while, you don't question that 'cause you just think it is normal from like your perspective. Not that it's wrong to be depressed, it's not. It just happens to people. I've been there, so but yeah, just learning how to reframe things. Me personally, I also subscribe to stoic philosophy and pieces of it.

I'm, I'm not dogmatic about it by any means. And also some of niche's philosophy as well, as well as Albert Camu. I, I think just there, there's a quote I really like. It's not so much a situation, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, but it's, it's not so much a situation that disturbs you, it's your reaction to it.

It's all about what you make of it. Something really bad can happen to you, but you can see it as this has completely destroyed me. Or this can make me more resilient or, yeah, this is really painful. But some of the best art and music and books have been written and people are just distraught with negative emotions.

It's some of the best stuff's been made when me, when I've been feeling terrible. But I think it's all about like framing things in a light that's helpful rather than non-destructive. So CBT can really help. That's the, yeah, basically that's, that's where I'm leaving it.

Anna: Oh, I agree. And cognitive behavioral therapy, like you said, it's probably one of the easier therapies to learn on your own and to do on your own.

You, yes. It's of course helpful with a therapist, but not everybody can afford it. And there's wonderful resources out there that people can use. And as a matter of fact, I'll link to some of them in my show notes. 'cause that's a great idea. I wonder. Do you think, as we've talked about creativity today and how it's probably related to bipolar as far as we can tell, do you think that there's any other strengths or positives about having bipolar?

Hagen: I know the productivity of hypomania and my psychiatrist, man, he, he sees bipolar as a gift and I know that makes some people angry and they're like, it's not a gift. This has like destroyed my life and that. You're welcome with that perspective. I'm not gonna argue with you on your opinion on it. He thinks hypomania can be a good thing in a way, as long as it doesn't escalate the mania and you don't like, I guess try to drag it out more than it needs to be drug out.

I personally feel like some of the strengths of bipolar for one is just, I feel like it makes you more creative. 'cause you see things from a perspective that not a lot of people see it. I think what is it, like 2% of people have bipolar disorder? Something like that. I, I'm not sure, but for one, yeah, seeing things from a different perspective.

I usually get insanely productive when I'm hypomanic and just proactive. Full on mania is not good though. You, you should stay away from that as best as you can, but I feel like there's some strengths to it. I, I feel like creativity kind of thrives on strong emotions, but not saying you should come off your mood stabilizers to engage with those, don't, that's a terrible idea.

But if you're creative, it can definitely, help you because you can access those emotions to create better art.

Anna: Yeah. I've heard that opinion before from other guests on the podcast that we experience such a range of emotions that we're kind of privy to this. Almost secret world that not everybody gets to see. To the, to the extent of the depth that we see it.

What do you wish people understood about those of us who live with bipolar?

Hagen: Probably the, sometimes we don't realize we're being irrational until after we're back to baseline and that. We don't mean to hurt the people close to us. I know I've like, like I said, I've scared people away when I'm manic and I wish I could go back and like unsaid or undo and unsay the things that I've said and done basically like posted like angry things on social media and just kind of like just.

Essentially scared away a bunch of family members and they didn't know I was bipolar for like a year or two and I kind of had to go to like family meetings and like kind of be, they didn't say that I was the crazy one in the family, but I just felt like in the back of their heads they kind of thought like they didn't know I was bipolar back then.

So they just thought I was just kinda outta my head and crazy. Went from being like the gifted kid in the family to like this kid's nuts and like. Eating paint brushes and trying to fight people and just all kinds of crazy stuff. But yeah, basically we don't mean to hurt people. And sometimes we can't see our own self-worth when we're really depressed and I need someone else to show us how we're dealing in a lot of ways and we're really good at certain things.

Anna: And you know, and you kept saying several times that for artists it's really important to keep going. It's really important not to give up. I wonder if there's any other kind of message you would like to convey to artists who are out there living with bipolar.

Hagen: Keep putting your name out there. No matter how many times you get rejected, because eventually, and if the law of probability has anything to do with this, and I believe it does, if you keep putting your name out there, the more times you do it, it increases the probability of someone doing it.

Look up famous success stories of people that have been rejected multiple times. Colonel Sanders, despite some of the controversy with like his character, I think he got rejected like 1,008 times with this chicken recipe. Stephen King, he's a writer. I don't know how many times he got rejected from like his book, Carrie.

He literally threw his manuscript in the trash. His wife had to fish it out for him and was like, no, you're going to do this. Also. Find someone that will do that for you. If that well, like. If you have, if you struggle with motivating yourself sometimes, especially when you're like deep in depression, find that person that will pat you on the back and be like, Hey, no, you're, you're a great artist or a great writer.

Whatever your creative thing is, you are great at it. Do not give up. Someone will eventually find you and you'll be so glad that you kept at it when it finally happens. Yeah, keep going. Do not give up. Keep putting your name out there. Apply to 1,000,001 galleries. As many grants as you can keep at it.

Eventually someone will be like, this is great. Yeah, essentially it.

Anna: That's a great message. I love it. 'cause like you said, they, you know, if you live with bipolar, you do have to put up with those depressive episodes when I'm sure that rejection can really hurt. So I love that message of just keep putting your name out there.

It will happen for you. You just have to keep trying.

Hagen: Another weird thing I've found is like labeling depressive thoughts and as. I personally picture it as like, and nothing against people to use TikTok or anything. I've used it on occasion as like an annoying, spoiled 13-year-old on TikTok saying these things to me and it kind of like I.

I feel like anger can be a good thing when you use it in a healthy way, and it kind of makes me angry at the thoughts and wanna prove them wrong, and I pictured it as like some annoying, spoiled 13-year-old on TikTok saying it to me like, oh, you're not good enough. You'll, you'll never get rich off hard, or You'll never be famous for your work, or whatever.

Just, you're insane. What? What do you think you can make a full-time living off? Are you crazy? Half your family's right? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're terrible at this. Just give up, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I just picture it as like someone really annoying or someone that was mean to me in high school saying it, and it just galvanizes me into trying harder.

Might not work for you, but it works for me. So, you know, hey.

Anna: Hey, another coping tool that people can use if they so desire. Oh, Hagan, it's been wonderful talking to you and I won't let you go until you tell me. Where can my listeners find you and your art?

Hagen: Two ways. If you go on Instagram and you type in RHR, surgeon or underscore art, and I will spell that because.

People have a hard time spelling my last name, R-H-R-S-U-R-G-E-N-E-R. Art, if you type in R HHR surgeon or I'll show up on the internet. I'm pretty, yeah, I'm the first result. If you type that in, most likely.

Anna: And I know from personal experience you have a website where people can go to the red bubble store and buy some clothes or bags or whatever they want to do with your art, and I highly recommend people do that.

It's great art, very unique. You will get questions on, where did you get that? Who is that? So. Please support Hagan Wonderful artist. Hagan, thank you so much for being here. I will link pleasure to your Instagram and your website in my show notes so people can find you easier. Thank you very much. I really loved interviewing Hagen, and I want to encourage you to check out his unique art.

I hope that this episode sparked some curiosity in you about the link between bipolar and creative expression. For my next episode, stay tuned for a discussion about bipolar disorder and hope. Until then, take care and stay courageous.