#39: Is EMDR Right for You? A Trauma Therapist’s Insight.
JULY 3, 2025
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In this episode of Courage to Heal, Anna speaks with Laurel Roberts-Meese, licensed psychotherapist and founder of Laurel Therapy Collective, about the power of EMDR therapy for healing trauma. With warmth and clarity, Laurel walks us through the eight phases of EMDR, explains how it rewires the brain’s trauma responses, and offers practical insights for those considering EMDR for PTSD or complex trauma. Whether you're an EMDR-curious client or a fellow therapist, this conversation sheds light on why EMDR is so effective—and what to expect from the process.
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Transcript
Anna: Hello friends and welcome to Courage to Heal Today I have a very special guest for you. Her name is Laurel Roberts-Meese. Laurel is a psychotherapist licensed in multiple states with a decade of experience helping driven professionals. She has also worked as a graduate professor at Pepperdine University.
She holds an MS in counseling psychology and is trained in EMDR trauma therapy. She also founded Laurel Therapy Collective, where she manages her team of therapists who specialize in anxiety, trauma, burnout, and couples therapy.
Laurel, welcome to Courage to Heal. It's great to have you here.
Laurel: Thanks. I'm excited to be here.
I know we've been trying to get this on the calendar for a while, so I’m glad it happened.
Anna: Absolutely. I'm very excited about it. Laurel, to get to know you a little bit, I'd love to know what led you to becoming a therapist in the first place?
Laurel: Yeah. Well, I'm one of the weirdos in life that is still on Plan a I, you know, it was the, it was other than being like a Broadway actress, which maybe that was Plan A when I was little, but in terms of like actually thinking about viable careers, I'm still.
That's always been the plan. I had my first therapy session when I was 12. You know, there was like some social stuff, some bullying, and middle school is rough, you know. So, I went to my first therapy session, and I remember I have, I have the memory of like walking out of the therapist's office and it was going up some steps and just thinking like, oh, that's the thing, that's the thing that I'm gonna do.
It's, you know, helping people tell their story, own their story, rewrite the story, see it from different perspectives, and experience that healing and like synthesis of identity. That somehow at 12 I understood that's what it was, you know? Mm-hmm. And the, from then on, I was just like, oh, yep, that's what do, what's the next step?
Okay, it's gonna be majoring in psych and. Doing some internships. I worked at a sexual violence response center in college. And just every, you know, it's quite a journey, as you know. So it was always just like, what's the next step? And then I got licensed and realized it didn't, I didn't suddenly transform into a perfectly molded, complete human being, and I actually got to determine where from there I wanted to go.
Since the licensure had been, so long in the making.
Anna: That's remarkable that this is your plan A, because I think most of the therapists I know are career switchers like myself. They start in something else, then realize, no, that thing I really kind of gravitated towards early on was the right thing to do, you know?
Yeah. And end up as a therapist. It's great to hear that this was your dream from an early age. Yeah. You work with high achievers? I do. Executives, lawyers, healthcare workers, entrepreneurs. How did you find that high-achieving people are your ideal clients?
Laurel: I think even for those that are on Plan A, like we're drawn to the work to like better try and understand ourselves, and I was noticing that the clients that I felt most effective with.
We actually like did some really deep productive work and like really saw that growth and transformation tended to be people who matched my like energy and drive and ambition in life. I joke sometimes that I'm cursed with ambition because it's that kind of like always being a little bit hungry, which is not a good feeling, you know, but you know, always kind of striving for what's next.
And I. People that had like the opposite of that energy. People that were just very, very stuck or you know, very depressed or not motivated. I just was not a very effective therapist for, and there are people that are, so I just saw, oh, okay, I'm actually good at helping these people and I can actually. See change and growth.
And so I just started really only working with people that I knew I could help. 'Cause nothing feels worse than like trying to help someone and you can't especially when it's your job and like they're paying you to do it. In my practice we certainly make sure we only work with people, we feel we can actually help.
Anna: I love that. Yeah. Kind of finding what that niche is where you're most effective and sticking with it. That's wonderful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Laurel today, like we talked about, we're gonna chat about EMDR therapy, which I've recently found out that yet another celebrity, Miley Cyrus said that she credits EMDR with really helping her in her life, almost like saving her life.
Very topical conversation. I. Let's just pretend, even though I am EMDR drained, let's pretend that I don't know anything about EMDR therapy. How would you explain it to me?
Laurel: Yeah. Well, first you have to suspend a little bit of disbelief because EMDR looks and sounds like pretty weird.
So, I acknowledge that what I'm about to say, like it sounds weird, and if the research didn't back up yes, this really does work, I would be highly suspicious. So. Are listening to this and also, you know, just coming to it fresh. Like it's okay if you're skeptical. A little bit of skepticism is healthy.
So, if I were to ask you, Anna, to describe your last trip to the grocery store. Would you have an emotional reaction to retelling that? I drove there, I parked, I got my cart, I walked in, I forgot the cream cheese. I had to go back to another aisle, and then I checked out and I went home. Would you have an emotional reaction?
Anna: Probably not.
Laurel: No. And unless grocery stores are triggering for you and some people they're, but so you, you don't like, you don't feel like your body gets kind of like. Set off by describing that. And if I were to ask you to describe something upsetting, you probably would have a physical reaction.
Anna: Absolutely. You can
Laurel: Logically know that you're safe and that it's over, but your body does not know that yet. So, what, because it's taking cues from your brain and your brain is saying, this is happening right now. You're in danger or you're not. Okay. So, what EMDR does through bilateral stimulation, which is side to side, either eye movements or tapping or sounds or pulses it helps your brain store the trauma memory differently so that when you think about it, your body doesn't react.
It doesn't mean you forget the trauma. We're not like doing eternal spot sunshine of the spotless mind. It doesn't mean that you're glad it happened or that it doesn't matter that it happened. It's never gonna be okay that it happened, but you can feel okay now even though it happened. So it's really just like cutting that line between the memory and the physical reaction you have to thinking about the memory.
Anna: Yeah. I love that explanation because even as you said, think of something upsetting and I haven't even started thinking about it yet. Mm-hmm. I could feel my shoulders tensing. Yeah. Like, okay, there it is. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So EMDR basically helps us, helps our brain really kind of rewire yes, to no longer associate the upsetting memory with those body sensations so they don't happen.
Laurel: Yeah, because I think a lot of us are moving through the world just kind of managing our trauma. Like something happens, we feel that body sensation and then we know how to do the self-soothing and like, okay, like I can just like picture a calm place or I call my friend, or I like, cuddle my dog.
And that helps regulate us down. That's managing trauma and I think a lot of us are moving through the world, managing our trauma. Okay. But to actually heal it is to just cut the tie between the memory and the physical reaction. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Anna: Yeah. I love that. So that you can feel safe again, which is Yeah.
Such a rare feeling for trauma survivors, unfortunately. It's, and to, to be able to bring it back to them, to give them that feeling of safety is a wonderful, wonderful thing to be able to do
Laurel: it. And it's also, I mean, it's such an honor and it's also. Such a testament to the brain's own capacity to heal. I mean, just like with our bodies are always trying to heal.
Sometimes we need antibiotics for an infection or a cast for a broken bone or you know, if we have a chronic or complex thing. But the body generally does try and heal. Sometimes we need medical intervention, and it's the same with the brain. Like the brain does try and heal. The brain does try to categorize and store memories in a way that helps us and protects us, and sometimes we just need to make some adjustments because it's doing too good a job at trying to protect us, but that makes us feel like we're not safe.
Anna: Absolutely. Yeah, that's very true. And you know, so when it comes to EMDR we don't just go straight into processing. We have this preparation phase, right? So, tell me a little bit more about that. How do you prepare your clients for the processing part?
Laurel: Yeah, thank you so much for bringing that up 'cause that's actually like one of my pet peeves and other EMDR therapists. Everyone should understand EMDR is an eight phase process. The phase that gets all the attention, the kind of like exciting weird one is phase four, where there's the bilateral stimulation and you're actually talking about the upsetting memory.
But that's phase four and all the phases are equally important. What you're talking about here is phase two, which is the preparation. And I have worked with people that we were in phase two for six months to a year. People that have chronic complex trauma, people that just don't have a lot of coping strategies, people that really need to be shored up and like kinda given a foundation that they can stand on, they're gonna need a lot more preparation.
And I, I've had people come to me for EMDR who tried EMDR before with someone who literally did zero preparation, like zero resourcing. And that it always goes poorly. Now, there are some people that are naturally very resourced and like they have that foundation to draw from, but you still need to go through the resourcing with them.
So what that looks like is one of my favorite exercises if I think someone will be able to do it relatively successfully, is I give them a homework assignment of. Can you write down 10 strong positive memories for me and bring it to your next session? And then in the session I ask, okay, did you do the, the 10 and it?
Half the time they say yes. Half the time I say no, and that's fine. But then I actually towards the end of the session, ask them to get out that list and that's when I start introducing the bilateral of the actual tapping. Some people do eye movements. I do topping 'cause I'm virtual only, and it's just a little easier.
I've found but you know, every client needs something a little differently. A little different. And getting used to the bilateral while talking about positive memories, calming me, me memories, connecting memories it kind of primes the brain to be like oh, okay, we're doing this, but we're reorganizing some things.
And often when EMDR fails, it's due to a lack of resourcing or poor targeting. So I say that you can't really over resource, and I know people are always very eager to get to the processing, eager to get to the part where they're gonna see some relief. But you're also gonna see some relief if you do a lot of resourcing.
Like we're, we're building up the reserve of positive things, not just depleting the cash of negative things.
Anna: Oh, that is so important because you're right. When I have people who tried EMDR before and they come to me and they're like, I don't know if I wanna do it because it didn't work, or it was too distressing.
I was like, okay, well, let, let's just try to prepare for it more and see how it goes after that. Because that preparation phase is really important, and I know we're kind of skipping past phase one, which is history taken and assessment also very important phase. Yeah. But I guess it's not as fun to talk about where you just gather history from the person about what they actually wanna work on.
Laurel: EMDR therapist, like there's kind of like some variation in how they collect the history, how much detail they go into. I like to say if there was a newspaper about your life every six months, what would be on the front page? Gosh. And I kind of just want factual information rather than going deep into the emotional experience.
Mm-hmm. Because we'll do that later. And as I'm getting to know someone, I don't wanna be like, so tell me your deepest, darkest trauma on day one. That's not a good idea. That's gonna make someone feel way too vulnerable and way too exposed and not build trust to actually go and do that work a little later on in the relationship.
Anna: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I've actually, and I've done this myself too, I've heard of therapists who do some preparation. So they kind of do phase two a little bit before doing phase one with the history taking, right? Because again, you wanna give the clients some tools to regulate themselves as you are gathering that history, which in and of itself could be upsetting.
Laurel: Yeah, absolutely. And I've noticed in the history collection. People that have, you know, strong trauma history. There's often a theme. The theme is sudden loss, or the theme is not being physically safe, or the theme is neglect. Right. And even just talking through your life and all the instances of that, that can be really hard.
So, I like that. Should just be protocol. Start with resourcing. Start with building people up. I think resource heavy, EMDR is the way to go.
Anna: I agree. I agree. Especially if you work with the association, that's a whole other conversation. But yes, if there's dissociation present, you definitely have to resource a lot before into processing.
Laurel: And I don't wanna give dissociation a bad name at all because dissociation is a built in and honestly, highly effective coping strategy. It allows you to tolerate the intolerable and so like way to go brain, you figured out a way to tolerate this by just kind of checking out a little bit and how wonderful that our brains can do that for us to protect us.
But yes, it does make processing a little trickier and you, you do need to do a lot of res resourcing for so that they can actually tolerate being mentally present for, for the processing. Yeah.
Anna: Yeah. And thank you so much for saying that about dissociation, because I couldn't agree more. It's a survival mechanism.
It's highly effective. It quite literally kept you alive during some horrible things that may have happened to. And I think, you know, if you go on like TikTok or Instagram and you watch some videos about dissociation, it's viewed very negatively. Like, you have to get rid of this, this is bad. And I find that appreciating its function.
And how it helped you in the past actually helps dispel it better than seeing it as this bad thing to get rid of.
Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. Thank your brain. Radical self-compassion is probably the best resource that you can build.
Anna: I would agree.
Laurel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just that fundamentally like believing you are deserving of love and kindness from yourself.
Anna: Absolutely. Okay. So yeah, let's talk about processing. So let's say we did phase one and two. Your, your client is ready to process things. What would a typically EMDR session look like for them at this point?
Laurel: Well, so phase one is history, phase two is the resourcing. Phase three is what we call targeting. And this is really a collaborative process and sometimes can take a full session or two to figure out the right target. In EMDR training, they often talk about trauma as kind of like a series of isolated incidents, but like almost all of our traumas are connected.
It's pretty rare that we actually have a single incident trauma. If we do, it's usually like a car accident or like maybe a natural disaster, but even those can be linked thematically to feeling unsafe or uncared for, or being in physical danger in other parts of your life. So it's, it's actually very rare to have a single incident trauma.
Our brains are just, you know, webs of connection and are what makes. Humans. So psychologically complex is that we also as attach meaning to these webs. And so targeting is basically identifying, okay, we have a a web and the theme is neglect. How do we find like kind of that linchpin memory that if we process that memory, the rest of them go down like a line of dominoes and it.
In the EMDR community, we talk about looking for the first or worst memory. So if the target is in the theme of neglect, you would wanna go to the first or worst memory you have of neglect. Now, maybe the it doesn't have to be something where your life was in danger. I hear all the time from people I'm processing with that one of their earliest memories of neglect was being forgotten at school.
Now they're not in physical danger. It wasn't that their parent necessarily meant to forget them at school. There was no like malice or mal, no maltreatment. But it's still like, oh, I guess I don't matter enough to be picked up like all the other kids. That is traumatic when you think about it that way.
It's like, oh, do I matter? Finding that early memory of not being picked up at school or whatever it is, and then really identifying what about that memory is traumatic, what are the body sensations, what are the beliefs about yourself or the world that you developed because of that? How disturbing is it to you?
We call it the subjective units of disturbance. And EMDR therapist will say. How disturbing is this memory from zero to 10 with zero being not disturbing at all and 10 being the most disturbed you could feel and you know, it's normal for that number to not feel proportionate to the memory like that being left at school, like you weren't in physical danger.
But even thinking back on it, you might say it's a seven, eight or nine in terms of disturbance because emotionally it still is so activating to you. So really identifying what the right memory is and all of the beliefs and feelings and body sensations and images around that memory can take a session or two or three.
So that's phase three. And then phase four is where you actually start the processing. So you, you hold them. And, and please don't do this without EMDR therapist. Don't try an EMDR yourself. But you, you hold the memory in your awareness with the body sensations and the thoughts, and you either move your eyes or you do the tapping, or there's sounds in your ears, or you're holding, buzzers and then that goes for about 20 seconds, and then your therapist tells you to take a deep breath and let it out.
And then they just ask, what do you notice? And there's no incorrect answer to. It could be, I noticed my foot is itching, or I noticed there was one other kid that didn't get picked up and he actually got left at school way more often than me, and we actually became friends. Or it could be, I noticed there was a really kind office worker that sat with me and gave me some coloring to do, or any other thing that came up, or it could be, I notice I'm feeling angry.
My adult self is feeling angry that that kid got forgotten. So there's no incorrect answer. It could be a thought feeling, image word, something completely unrelated. And then your therapist kind of follows that thread because it's part of the neural network. And eventually over time with processing the disturbance gets to zero, and that can take.
Half a session, it can take 10, 20 sessions. It can and anywhere in between. And any and any of that processing time is normal.
Anna: You did a lovely job explaining it. So clear and really taking the time to point out that there's no wrong way to do this. That our brains will process the way they process however long it takes, whatever specific path it takes.
Whether it's through body sensations or thoughts or emotions or other memories that come up. And yeah, that, that's how we process things.
Laurel: I wanna add on that. If EMDR isn't working, or you're wondering if you're bad at EMDR? No. The only person that can be doing something wrong is the EMDR therapist.
Your job is to show up, follow the prompts, and communicate honestly. If that honest communication is like, yeah, I'm wondering if I'm doing this right. Just say that, there definitely are mistakes your therapist can make, but you as a client you can't make any mistakes.
Anna: Oh, lovely.
Thank you for saying that. Yes. Absolutely. And I do find that clients very often ask like, am I doing this right? Yeah. You know, I'm afraid that I, like, I need to be doing something else with my, processing. When you ask me, what do you notice? And telling them that, no, there is no way you can do this wrong.
I might be able to make a mistake, but not you, it’s very important.
Laurel: And you know what seems very simple on the outside mm-hmm. Is actually very complex, you know, making these adjustments in your neural network. And that's why it's really important that you only do this with a, like a trained therapist who's gone through is 50 hours of training plus ongoing consultation.
And you know, it's actually pretty complex under the surface. What you will see as a client actually seems pretty simple. But there are a lot of things that the therapist can be doing that you know, make EMDR. Kind of stall or ineffective and just speak up. Just ask your therapist.
Anna: That's great. Yeah. Just communicate honestly and it'll be better. Okay. So let's say we get those suds, right, those subjective units of disturbance down to a zero. That's, that's what we to be at. What's next?
Laurel: With the being neglected at school or being left at school example, the, the belief you have might be, “I don't matter.” And when you process it to zero, you may realize like, oh, I don't believe that anymore. I actually believe like I deserved better than that, and I still deserve better. And so, you think about the memory and you kind of play in the loudspeaker of your mind, “I deserved better” or “I am lovable” or “I am worthy.”
And you use the same bilateral to like install that belief in your mind, right? And it feels true in your body. 'cause you might logically know that you deserved better as a little kid, but your body is like, yeah, I don’t know. So that phase five is installation. And it feels really good.
At that point, you're kind of like, oh, yeah, like that something happened. It may not be crystal clear that something happened, but there can be a shift and often it's hard to measure the absence of something, you know, like the absence of a physical reaction. So sometimes people aren't quite sure if it worked, but then it becomes clear later that it did work.
There's definitely some relief 'cause you're not feeling disturbed anymore, so that it feels really good that phase five and just kind of like, okay.
Anna: Yeah. That's definitely my favorite phase, I would say is installation phase. Because I do find that clients will have these like spontaneous positive beliefs coming up that are related to the positive belief we're installing.
Right. But it's, yeah, it's more, it's more of that good juice, like I say, it's just, yeah. Yes. I, I do matter. I, I do deserve love and affection. I am important
Laurel: And also what I notice in phase five is a lot of like healthy adult parts of the self start to come out. And they start to like, imagine themselves like going to pick up their younger self and saying, Hey, I've got you.
You're okay. I know this is scary, but I've got you and being more in that. Positive adult perspective. It because they, they genuinely feel like a little kid when they're thinking back on it, but then they come back to it with the adult perspective, which there, there is so much richness in that.
So I really enjoy seeing how the adult shows up and contributes to the healing.
Anna: Oh, that is so true. I've definitely seen that happen. As a matter of fact, combining EMDR with parts work like that is probably like my favorite thing to do as a modality.
Laurel: Peanut butter and jelly, they go together.
Anna: Oh, I love that. Yes, absolutely. Okay, so we might as well finish out the, yeah. Phase, the whole eight phases, right? Mm-hmm. The 6, 7, 8. So walk me through that. What would you do there?
Laurel: Yeah. Phase six is the body scan where like, okay, we've gotten it down to zero, we've installed this positive belief, but like, let's check in with our body.
Is there any like leftover tension or has something shifted? I know one of my one of my, feeling my feet and hands are cold is a sign that things are not great. And that when I get to that place of relief, then my hands and feet are warm. So in phase six, I might notice that, oh, my hands and feet are warm.
And then we just notice that and we, we like, let's see what else is left in the body because. I am gonna try not to like hate on CBT too much because CBT can be really effective, but it's an incomplete model because it leaves out the body if you're only thinking about thoughts, behavior, and emotion, like your body gets ignored and it can feel kind of like gaslighting to leave out the body because like of course, you rationally know you're safe now.
And of course, you rationally know you're never gonna be forgotten at school again. But your body is saying, I just got left at school again. You know, because you're, you know, someone canceled a date or someone you know really lets you down or, or you know, kind of made you feel alone. Again, your body is where the memory is stored.
So doing that, phase six, that body scan. Helps us see like, okay, did we really get to the bottom of this neural network and close it out, or is there maybe some more work to do?
Anna: All right, so yeah, the body scan and then seven and eight. Probably less interesting phases, but still important where you close out the session.
And you know something I always say, like, important to understand that your brain and body are gonna keep processing some of this stuff in the week or two after the session, because otherwise you could be really surprised by like, vivid dreams or old memories coming up. And so, letting people know that that might still be happening.
Laurel: Yes, absolutely. And, and your brain is working very hard to rewire itself. And I particularly with eye movements, I hear people report having a headache after EMDR. So, if you have strong headaches or, you know, visual, it tends to trigger headaches. You might consider a different form of bilateral stimulation but also just your brain's working hard.
So, people report just being like, exhausted. And just like feeling like they ran a marathon or just like very mentally taxed for 24, maybe 48 hours after. I'd say would be in the window of normal. You might wanna consider that when scheduling your sessions. I have some people that, you know, they would schedule EMDR sessions with me on Friday afternoon because they didn't have to go back to work and.
Kind of mentally engage with something else. They could just take the evening to relax and the morning to sleep and let their brain keep doing the processing. 'cause the brain does keep processing, the brain keeps reorganizing and shifting even after the session is done. Also very important to not drink or use any substances 24 hours before and after 'cause you don't wanna interrupt all the good work that you just did with chemicals. Certainly keep taking any prescribed medications but don't add anything extra in there.
Anna: Yeah, that's a very important point. Yes. The kind of the container we keep around the session, right? Yeah. The before and the after.
Laurel: I have worked with clients that I directly talk to their psychiatrist because they were taking something particularly like a beta blocker that would actually prevent them from getting upset. And like the goal is not necessarily to upset you for the sake of getting upset, but you do need to be able to fully access the emotional intensity of it.
And a beta blocker would prevent that. So, you know, I had an agreement with the psychiatrist and the clients that that before and after for like a 48 hour period that they would not be on their beta blockers.
Anna: Oh yeah. So important to know. 'cause you're right that absolutely can mess with that.
And, you know, that brings me to my next question of, that's the one I get very often is, does EMDR cause emotional distress during the processing session or after the session?
Laurel: Yes. Yes. But there's structure and containment, right? EMDR can be very intense. I'm not gonna lie. And I would hate for anyone to be surprised by that.
Yeah. EMDR doesn't work unless you fully access the emotional intensity of the trauma. For the purpose of resolving it, we have to keep that in mind. I think a lot of people are scared to do EMDR because they don't wanna face that intensity. Remember, you'll be resourced if you're working with a good practitioner.
You will, you know, have some more tools to cope with it. And if you don't resolve the target in a single session, there are some things that your therapist can do to help you contain it. I have had people, you know, a handful of people that did feel some distress ongoing afterwards, and it usually resolved 24 to 48 hours.
If it didn't like, you know, I would get on the phone with them and figure out what we needed to do to get them some relief. I would say it's not that common. It does happen if it's a possibility. But yeah, not, not that often. Have, have you had that experience?
Anna: I've had people who had really vivid dreams and they weren't necessarily nightmares, but they were so vivid that it was intense.
Right. It prevented them from sleeping well because they were like, in this dream doing something.. And then they wake up and they're like, what was that? I like, never remember my dreams, and all of a sudden this weird thing happened. So that's definitely a thing that's happened.
Laurel: Yeah. You can also look at like you're changing your neural networks and you know, sometimes people with trauma don't remember their dreams and they start to heal their trauma and then they do have dreams and they're not bad.
But what if you're not used to it? It can feel a little confusing.
Anna: Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So next question. Do you think EMDR is good for everyone? Like a good fit for everyone? Or are there some contraindications, some situations where you say, no, let's do something else?
Laurel: No treatment is good for everyone. And any treatment that claims it works for everyone, I would be skeptical, just like medications don't work, you know? Antibiotics are great, but some people are allergic or they have a particular, you know, a resistant strain of bacteria, whatever, right? So no, it, it's not for everyone.
Things that we assess for in our practice, if someone has active and ongoing substance abuse or overuse, it might be difficult to engage with EMDR and to actually benefit from it. If there are some people with autism or, you know, other neurodiversity related, neural processes that don't respond to EMDR. I also have worked with plenty of Neurodiverse people that do respond to EMDR.
So, being autistic or Neurodiverse doesn't eliminate you from EMDR. It just, some people who are neurodiverse respond to it well and some don't. And it's kind of a trial and error with that. If you are in an active and ongoing traumatic situation EMDR can. You're not gonna be able to resolve it until you, yourself are in a place of safety.
It can also prevent PTSD even if it doesn't completely neutralize the trauma. There have been some studies on you know, developing nations that had natural disasters. Some mental health workers were deployed and did kind of like a, a very early intervention. Em like preventative EMDR and they did follow up studies and that they're actually, it did have an effect in preventing PTSD from developing, even though people were still impacted by it.
It didn't result in full-blown PTSD. If they received early intervention, the earlier the better with EMDR, but you can heal at any time. Other contraindications. I mean, we already talked a little about dissociation. Dissociating doesn't completely mean EMDR isn't available to you. You just might need to do a lot of work to get ready for the EMDR.
And then there's some concern and I'm not totally familiar with the literature. I wanna consult with doctors on this. But if you're pregnant. There's just a little bit of concern about if the emotional intensity would be stressful to the fetus. Right. So I would wanna talk to that person's obstetrician and make sure that it was gonna be okay.
There's also, I can see a case for like, it's probably good for a baby to not have a traumatized mom. Yeah. Yeah. Or birthing parents. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Anna: Yeah, it's kind of like the argument about should you keep taking certain medications that are like for depression or anxiety during pregnancy. Of course there are some, you absolutely should not, but the argument is always like, well, is it better to, be completely drug free even with prescribed medications?
Or is it better for the mom to not be distressed with depression and anxiety?
Laurel: So, you know, all of these, like, there's no automatic rule out, it's just extra consideration and maybe collaboration with some of your other providers.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely.
Laurel: And did I miss any?
Anna: No, I don't think you did. I think you did a wonderful job explaining all of those. Yeah. And I think the really biggest takeaway here is like yes, there are these contraindications, but it could be, again, it could be that your therapist is making certain mistakes in the EMDR process and that's why it's not quote unquote working for you.
But that doesn't mean that EMDR doesn't work for your situation, it just means that the approach needs to be more experimentation. And Laurel earlier you, you did a wonderful job explaining how even though in a lot of EMDR training, they tell us about single incident traumas, AKA, those isolated traumas that just happen, like a one-off. Quite often that's not the case.
And there's a series of, of connected memories. And it could be complex trauma where it's all some kind of like abuse or mistreatment, or they could be seemingly disconnected, but they have the same theme to them.
So, I wonder like when it comes to treating complex PTS, where somebody does go through those series of related bad memories, right? What do you typically see and what are some realistic expectations for people with complex trauma?
Laurel: Yeah. I like to offer hope because people think like, oh God, I'd have to go through each memory, I'd be in EMDR therapy for the rest of my life.
Again, it's about finding those linchpin memories in the complex web of trauma. And realistically, people with a really intense trauma history, they might only have like 10 to 15 targets. That actually need to be, and that's for someone with a very complex trauma history.
Right. Most adults that I've worked with that, you know, have like moderate complexity trauma they, they see significant relief after processing four to five targets. And because they kind of just is like, okay, if you can find the right spot and like put the stink bomb in the nest and then it takes care of the whole thing.
Or maybe more appealing metaphor is like you find the right domino and you knock it over and the whole line goes out. But yeah, you don't, you don't have to do every single memory part of, and actually phase eight of EMDR is that like evaluating like, okay, did this stay at a SUD zero? If it did great, we took care of it.
We, we dealt with that one. If it didn't stay at a SUD zero, it means probably part of a web and maybe there's something else in the web that we need to look at. Often what I see happening is the suds come down a little bit, but then they stay stuck. That tells me I don't necessarily have the right target and that I need to be looking to see like, oh, okay. Is there something else in this theme in this web that is actually a more powerful memory that we would have more success if we focused on that one instead?
Anna: Yes. Yes. I'm actually thinking of a client. Who came in for because of fear of driving; riding in the car or driving the car, and it didn't fully unravel until we addressed an early childhood memory where he almost drowned in a pool.
Laurel: There you go.
Anna: It seems completely unconnected, but that feeling of being trapped, so you're trapped in a car or you're trapped in a pool underwater, that's what was holding it together.That was the thread.
Laurel: Absolutely. That's a great example. I also see a lot of people with fear of flying. It goes back to and, and, and, and we logically know flying is pretty safe as a form of transportation.
Like, I think the only safer form of transportation is like escalators or something, you know? But mentally, like thinking about like, you're in a tin can in the sky and you're not in control. That triggers a lot of people. And again, you're like, trauma is not logical. It's stored in your body and it's trying to keep you alive.
It's just doing too good at a job.
Anna: Yeah. Okay, Laurel, I love how much valuable information you gave us here. Really a great overview of EMDR as a model. Lots of things that people, I think would love to know before deciding, is this the right model for me to try? And I know that you have your therapy collective, so I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about that.
What states are you providing therapy in and how can people find you?
Laurel: Yeah. So, I have a small team. I handpick all of the therapists that we work together and we collaborate. We actually just this morning had consultation, which is where like we talk about people very much from a place of respect and wanting to provide them the best care.
And you know, of course, you know, we're, we're all therapists and there's, we take confidentiality very seriously. And we're all EMDR trained and we all engage in ongoing consultation with an EMDR certified consultant to really make sure we're offering the best care. And when we feel stuck with a case, we have somewhere we can go.
So, we're not just like throwing spaghetti at the wall. We're really, we offer EMDR. We also do couples therapy. We work with a lot of driven professionals. We do a lot of work with burnout, and there's some crossover in burnout and trauma. Yeah. I think people with a trauma history are more likely to burn out.
And that's a whole other topic, a whole different podcast episode. We currently serve California and Florida. And then we also have clinicians that are licensed in Michigan and Washington State. So, anyone who is physically in one of those places and is interested in EMDR, you are welcome to reach out.
We're at laureltherapy.net.
Anna: Wonderful. Thank you. I will make sure to put that in the show notes for anybody who wants to reach out. Laurel, thank you so much for joining me today and giving so many insights about EMDR therapy. It was truly a pleasure.
Laurel: Yeah, thanks for having me, Anna.
Anna: And for all of you listening, I hope you leave feeling a little more empowered. Remember, healing takes time and you're exactly where you need to be. Take care of yourselves and until we meet again, be kind to your heart.
